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Kidderminster sand used at Swindon Foundry?
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Graham



Joined: 21 May 2011
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Location: The banks of the River Severn as it meanders through the sun dappled leafy glades of Worcestershire

PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:27 am    Post subject: Kidderminster sand used at Swindon Foundry? Reply with quote

On page 68 of 'The Great Western Railway, A Celebration', by Tim Bryan, in a paragraph about the Swindon Works furnaces, it states "...in the 1940s red Kidderminster sand was used for moulds...".
Does anyone know the precise source of this sand?
Was it H. Whitehouse's Sand Siding, Wilden Sand Siding, or the sidings and sand pit at Aggborough marked on old OS maps?
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Derby4



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is mention of this in Tony Barfield's book "When there was steam". The map of the Kidderminster loco shed area shows two sand quarries, one accessed from the shed tracks, and another on the opposite side of the branch.

On page 32 there is the following: "The depot was built on GWR land and over 10,000 tons of sand was excavated before the shed could be built. This sand was of a special quality and was used in the moulding shops of Swindon and other GWR works. It was excavated regularly, with the last wagonload sent to Swindon in the early 1960's."

Rob
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Graham



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Location: The banks of the River Severn as it meanders through the sun dappled leafy glades of Worcestershire

PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, I've ordered that book now.
This 1951 1:25k map shows a remote siding and quarry near the MPD, I guess that must be one of the sand pits mentioned. I'll find out for sure when the book arrives.
There's also this sand pit and sidings closer to the station on the 1902 25 inch map. It's interesting seeing how the number and layout of the sidings, and the extent of the sand pit, varied over the years.
There's a lot more maps showing this available on https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/ but they don't support direct linking
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sharpo



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back in the 50s I remember playing in the sandpit on the north side of the line. Tried my first ciggy there, didn't like it so never took up smoking.
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Robin



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham wrote:
Thanks, I've ordered that book now.
This 1951 1:25k map shows a remote siding and quarry near the MPD, I guess that must be one of the sand pits mentioned. I'll find out for sure when the book arrives.
There's also this sand pit and sidings closer to the station on the 1902 25 inch map. It's interesting seeing how the number and layout of the sidings, and the extent of the sand pit, varied over the years.
There's a lot more maps showing this available on https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/ but they don't support direct linking
The 10,000 tons excavated from the Kidderminster Shed site is also mentioned in John Marshall’s book (p137), where he says that the sand went to Swindon, Wolverhampton and Caerphilly.

AJ Turley’s ‘The Railway at Kidderminster in the 1940s’, pages 133-134, includes an extract from the instructions in the 1943 Service Timetable Appendix . One section is titled “Working to and from Kidderminster Engine Shed (and Sand) Sidings” and allows wagons to be propelled to those sidings. The following section is titled “H. Whitehouses Sand Siding between Kidderminster and Bewdley at 135 miles 60 chains” and gives detailed instruction on how to access that siding which was worked from Kidderminster but facing to Bewdley (by drawing the wagons and then propelling back into the siding). It therefore appears that the first section dealt with working to the siding(s) near the Shed which can be seen on the 1951 map.

As an aside, I’ve just noticed the 1902 map shows a siding apparently serving a gravel pit next the underbridge on Lisle Avenue. There is a small box next to the points at the west end which was presumably a ground frame. However I’ve never seen it mentioned anywhere.
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Graham



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Location: The banks of the River Severn as it meanders through the sun dappled leafy glades of Worcestershire

PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, that's another book I need to buy now.
I'd spotted those sidings as well, although as it's labelled "Gravel Pit", I was going to save it for another investigation.
A couple of things that stood out though, were the way earlier and later maps show the road continuing straight through. Presumably this was some sort of overhead hopper with a clear route through underneath and it didn't obstruct the road.
Also, the unusual layout of the sidings. My best guess is that the train of empty wagons was propelled in to the far siding, the locomotive would then return to Kidderminster, leaving the rake of empty wagons and the brake van to be drawn through the loading point and shunted in to the central siding one at a time by horse to await dispatch.

One of my side projects I've been thinking about for a while is to record how the track plan of the SVR changed over the years, with various sidings added or removed and stations altered. I'm currently waiting for a reply from www.old-maps.co.uk as the copyright information in their FAQ seems to be aimed solely at print publications, with no clear rule applying to a not-for-profit web site.

Edit to add;
I've got a reply and we're OK to use maps from www.old-maps.co.uk as long as we credit both them and Ordnance Survey.
I've made a start. There's a long way to go yet. https://www.svrwiki.com/Bridgnorth#Historic_maps_of_Bridgnorth_Station
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pbennett



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Graham

Just in case you've not noticed, there are later date 25in maps on the nls site which show KR engine shed in much greater detail. This one has a 1938 revision date - hopefully, this link will work: https://maps.nls.uk/view/120899236#zoom=4&lat=5270&lon=6764&layers=BT
And scroll left for the Sugar Beet factory.

The nls site is endlessly fascinating!

ATB
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hunter_i



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi I am always amazed at the amount of track that was laid over the years in Britain and the finance and labour that was expended. Although this is understandable in times when roads were not common.

I was therefore very appreciative of the links provided in the postings above and particularly the original layout(s) at Kidderminster.

In exploring those links I have seen a map of Kiddermister showing trackwork into a Corn Mill just behind the Goods Shed, which is now the Rail Museum. Beside that is a stub siding stopping just short of an area marked "sand pit".

In checking older maps of that area I thought I found a map showing a series of tracks extending further into the area which is bounded by Hoo Road and Comberton Terrace.

Thanks to my internet incompetence I now cannot find that particular map.

So my question relevant to this thread is whether, if those tracks existed, were they used for sand extraction and if so would they have been of a temporary nature and therefore banned to locomotives?
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Graham



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Location: The banks of the River Severn as it meanders through the sun dappled leafy glades of Worcestershire

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, pbennett. Yes, I've been using both map sites for reference as each has its pros and cons.
NLS allows zooming in to see greater detail, while Old-Maps seems to have a better selection of maps.

hunter_i, is this the map you are looking for?
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=52.3835&lon=-2.2402&layers=168&b=1
It's a composite of a 1924 and a 1902 map and by the way the tracks disappear at the join, it's clear that the track was laid between those dates.

Once you start panning around on the old maps, it's surprising just how many sand pits there were in the area.
You can see why Kidderminster was known as the Carpet Town as well. I like the way some of them have specific products named, like "Hearth Rugs" or "Worsted".
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hunter_i



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Graham
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Graham



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every time I look at the maps I spot more details, which then lead to more questions.
In 1902, the site of the engine shed was a simple cutting.
By 1927, eight years before the engine shed was built, the site had been excavated and there was a single siding extending in to the workings. Was this site chosen for sand extraction because there was a long term plan to build an engine shed there, or was the engine shed built there because the site had already been levelled?
It's interesting that the Municipal Borough boundary follows the railway boundary fence. The Loop Line was built just four years before the Municipal Corporations Act of 1882.
By 1938 the engine shed was well established and there was a remote siding extending in to further workings to the south. The siding crossed the open field via a gate at each fence, rather than being fenced off from the field.
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Graham



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Location: The banks of the River Severn as it meanders through the sun dappled leafy glades of Worcestershire

PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been given digital copies of the original plans for part of the Severn Valley Railway. I'm currently waiting for a reply from the National Archives to clarify the copyright status of them before I put them on the wiki.
In the mean time, I can tell you that the two fields, including the one with the quarry, to the south of the engine shed on the 1938 map, were bought by the GWR from the Earl of Dudley on December 10th, 1918, so that's one pit or quarry at least in the area definitely on GWR owned land.
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Graham



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After a brief email exchange with The National Archives, it seems that as I couldn't provide the original reference numbers for the maps, and there's probably more than one copy in existence anyway, it was more trouble than it was worth for them to track them down and worry about copyright issues on a small, non-profit web site, so they said go ahead and publish them.

Unfortunately, it looks like the maps were photographed, not scanned, so parts of them are out of focus.
They are also not as complete as I would have expected. Although they feature many amendments, there are sidings shown on OS maps that are not on these plans.
This plan of Kidderminster Engine Shed doesn't show the siding to the north of the line that appears on the 1938 map for example, yet the area hatched blue denotes land conveyed to the Severn Valley Railway (Holdings) PLC on 26.7.84



See https://www.svrwiki.com/File:GWRplanKidderminsterEngineShed.jpg for a larger version.
I'll work my way through and add the whole lot eventually.
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Robin



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Graham wrote:
After a brief email exchange with The National Archives, it seems that as I couldn't provide the original reference numbers for the maps, and there's probably more than one copy in existence anyway, it was more trouble than it was worth for them to track them down and worry about copyright issues on a small, non-profit web site, so they said go ahead and publish them.<snip>
Excellent, look forward to seeing them in due course. The one you added for Folly Point siding has an interesting orientation at almost right angles to the actual geography. Presumably it was done specifically for the GWR and therefore had the line running across the page for ease of use.
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Graham



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Location: The banks of the River Severn as it meanders through the sun dappled leafy glades of Worcestershire

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Ordnance Survey's 6" and 25" map series' weren't completed until the 1890s. I can't find a date of publication on the plans, but I suspect they predate the OS maps, although I don't know if they were surveyed by the GWR, or copied from the original SVRC/OW&W survey.
There are lots of notes relating to land sales and purchases, and grants of access. The 1860s ones look like they were included in the original plans. The oldest one I have found so far that definitely looks like an amendment is dated 1880.
The plans are in a book in landscape format with typically two sections of approximately one mile each on each page. 10 pages cover the line from the junction with the Kidderminster/Hartlebury line to just north of Bridgnorth. Kidderminster station is not included. They are arranged for best fit on the page with no regard for orientation.
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