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Another class 20 for the SVR
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cherry_p



Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 1991
Location: Solihull

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mick_wilson wrote:

1. What work is there on the SVR for yet another diesel locomotive if it was restored to working order?
2. Where are further spare parts going to come from to keep such a large population of 20s running?

I can't answer question 2, but re question 1, I think it WOULD actually make sense to have 3 class 20s.
The idea with the 20s is to have a lot more drivers trained on them, so that they can genuinely be considered as 'Thunderbirds', so if there is a steam failure, there is a much better chance than at present that there will be not only a loco to do the rescue, but a driver present to drive it!
Ideally always one available at Bridgnorth and at Kidder. If we had a third one, then when one is stopped for maintenance, we could still have one at each end.
Much better than having to use an 08 -- I've only ever rescued a train once with an 08, and I'm glad we only had to drag it from Eardington summit into Bridgnorth -- any further would have taken forever!


Last edited by cherry_p on Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bradleyman



Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 835

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How real is the need for thuderbird type rescues though? - taking an honest commercial view - a discipline basic to the survival of the railway.

In over 30 years of regular steam footplate work on the SVR I have only twice had to fail a steam loco which then required short notice rescue to maintain the service.

On five other occasions an altenative steam loco has been substituted at short notice to maintain the service by using locos already in steam at a depot or swapping with those on a freight duty.

Hardly a regular occurence!

If these figures are in any way typical it seems extravagant (understatement) to expect to have (in addition to the admittedly slow 08s) at least one class 20 at each end of the line - given that this will presumably cost scarce s.

Whilst agreeing that these locos are very useful on P. Way work there is now apparent an evolving tendancy to "manufacture" work for them on the railway including moving around steam locos, in steam, which are perfectly capable of being moved under their own power.
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allison_p



Joined: 15 Jul 2003
Posts: 263
Location: Brierley Hill

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have in the past worked a train from Kidderminster to Highley (BS1) mid weeek about three years ago with the 08 - no one was passed to operate any of the other diesel loco's in the yard at the time - I had not passed my DMU drivers exam then so we could not use that.
The jockey valve on 4566 became stuck in in 1 engine line at Kidderminster.
The result was 42968 ran Light to Highley to meet us and the Bridgnorth 73 ran BN1, meaning two coaches had to be knocked off the set to make it six and meaning we had to use two members of paid staff who were booked on maintenance work, meaning a days work had been lost in the workshops.
I remember it taking an age, and being nearly walking pace up the gradient to the tunnel.
So yes - thunderbird loco's do make alot of sense.
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PGTips



Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradleyman wrote:
How real is the need for thuderbird type rescues though? - taking an honest commercial view - a discipline basic to the survival of the railway.

In over 30 years of regular steam footplate work on the SVR I have only twice had to fail a steam loco which then required short notice rescue to maintain the service.

On five other occasions an altenative steam loco has been substituted at short notice to maintain the service by using locos already in steam at a depot or swapping with those on a freight duty.

Hardly a regular occurence!

If these figures are in any way typical it seems extravagant (understatement) to expect to have (in addition to the admittedly slow 08s) at least one class 20 at each end of the line - given that this will presumably cost scarce s.

Whilst agreeing that these locos are very useful on P. Way work there is now apparent an evolving tendancy to "manufacture" work for them on the railway including moving around steam locos, in steam, which are perfectly capable of being moved under their own power.



That was in the days when the SVR had a closed season and the steam loco's were able to be given some heavier maintenance but in today's commercially driven world this has lessened, probably why the SVR is having to hire steam loco's to forfill it's premier steam service. I can recall at least 4 times last year alone, that a 20 has rescued or substituted for a steam loco and that's not including Hampton Loade, which a 37 and an 08 were involved. I'm sure that the directors and most of the SVR would be pleased for you to put you hand in your pocket to fund the the movement of steam loco's under THEIR own power, this could work out mighty costly in today spiralling running costs and the added wear and tear and increased washouts.
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Big T



Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 199
Location: Surrey

PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes the 20's are handy 4 p-way, thunderbird duties and shunting but 2 is plenty I feel especially with the amount of diesels on the books compared to the amount of work they get on the railway. Im a steam man myself and in an ideal world it would be all steam but i can see that diesels are handy machines to have. Just maybe not 2 many!
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boldford



Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 2740
Location: Glad to be no longer stuck on that linear parking lot known better as the M6

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cherry_p wrote:
mick_wilson wrote:

. . . . .
2. Where are further spare parts going to come from to keep such a large population of 20s running?

I can't answer question 2, . . . .
No surprise there.
The heritage railway movement has geared itself up to manufacture steam locomotive components aplenty. Not so with diesels. Until such time as the diesel aficionados have such capability in place they will need to rely upon an ever decreasing supply of spare parts for what could become an ever increasing fleet.
The close tolerances and sophisticated heat treatment of many parts needed in an infernal combustion engine mean few parts can be made using the workshop facilities available on most heritage railways.
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David McFall



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 33
Location: Stourbridge

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have followed this thread for sometime and feel that it is abouttime we made use of these engines.

I cant help thinking that we have vast gaps in our timetables where our passangers can be left at our closed middle stations. I understand all the staffing problems and understand the balance we have with costs and volunteers with time mid week.

I cant help thinking that a regular slot in our quiet timetable would benifit everyone. We would attract diesel customers and improve our timetable for travellers who would only travel part way with diesel.

Would it be possible to staff such a train from diesel volenteers who would not otherwise be keen on working steam?

I for one as a steam fan would still enjoy one of our classic diesel engines rather than no train for over an hour.Additionally if staffed by diesel fans who could explain there history and reasoning for there use i.e. an additional train for flexibility of there visit rather than a steam replacement
then it could have a real benifit.

my only problem is they would look better in classic liveries the black 20 has always put me off and to see the new green livery on its class mate looks fantastic.

It is not easy to imagine many places that can provide our variety of classic diesel traction on a good run .
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Buffer



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 704
Location: Leamington Spa

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assuming that 20177 is complete, how much would it cost to send it to a specialist company to have it overhauled to the same high standard as we get from Bridgnorth with a steam loco? There is no suggestion that the owners should do so but the question is asked out of interest to get comparative steam and diesel overhaul costs.
As far as spares are concerned, have owners not bought everything available in the way that classic car and commercial vehicle groups have done?
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hearn_p



Joined: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 5849

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boldford wrote:
cherry_p wrote:
mick_wilson wrote:

. . . . .
2. Where are further spare parts going to come from to keep such a large population of 20s running?

I can't answer question 2, . . . .
No surprise there.
The heritage railway movement has geared itself up to manufacture steam locomotive components aplenty. Not so with diesels. Until such time as the diesel aficionados have such capability in place they will need to rely upon an ever decreasing supply of spare parts for what could become an ever increasing fleet.
The close tolerances and sophisticated heat treatment of many parts needed in an infernal combustion engine mean few parts can be made using the workshop facilities available on most heritage railways.


Hi Brian. Life moves on though, I've read that the casting of new cylinders or driving wheels in early preservation was thought to be impossible.

Many diesel engines for example, are derivatives or variations of engines in the marine or automotive industries. The EE engine family was widespread and is still in use in mainline service and parts are available. The sheer number of preserved locos (over 140 with EE engines) will mean that groups can get together to produce small production runs in the future. More so than kettles, technological advances can be employed - microprocessors in the Westerns for example.

Nothing, perhaps, is forever.

Buffer wrote:
Assuming that 20177 is complete, how much would it cost to send it to a specialist company to have it overhauled to the same high standard as we get from Bridgnorth with a steam loco? There is no suggestion that the owners should do so but the question is asked out of interest to get comparative steam and diesel overhaul costs


I seem to remember that Western Courier's ten year overhaul cost around 100,000 and that 43106's cost around 400,000, but there will be big variations. The Western team was certainly volunteer lead with specialist work (e.g. transmission overhaul) outsourced but I can't comment on the amount of volunteer labour in each.

Going back on thread...

David McFall wrote:
my only problem is they would look better in classic liveries the black 20 has always put me off and to see the new green livery on its class mate looks fantastic.


Railway Magazine February 2010 reported D8188 is being repainted from black.

Regards

Patrick
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Buffer



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 704
Location: Leamington Spa

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hearn_p wrote:

Buffer wrote:
Assuming that 20177 is complete, how much would it cost to send it to a specialist company to have it overhauled to the same high standard as we get from Bridgnorth with a steam loco? There is no suggestion that the owners should do so but the question is asked out of interest to get comparative steam and diesel overhaul costs


I seem to remember that Western Courier's ten year overhaul cost around 100,000 and that 43106's cost around 400,000, but there will be big variations. The Western team was certainly volunteer lead with specialist work (e.g. transmission overhaul) outsourced but I can't comment on the amount of volunteer labour in each.

Many thanks for the information. It is suprising that a locomotive as complex as a Western can be overhauled for that sum even with a very substantial volunteer input.
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PGTips



Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hearn_p wrote:
boldford wrote:
cherry_p wrote:
mick_wilson wrote:

. . . . .
2. Where are further spare parts going to come from to keep such a large population of 20s running?

I can't answer question 2, . . . .
No surprise there.
The heritage railway movement has geared itself up to manufacture steam locomotive components aplenty. Not so with diesels. Until such time as the diesel aficionados have such capability in place they will need to rely upon an ever decreasing supply of spare parts for what could become an ever increasing fleet.
The close tolerances and sophisticated heat treatment of many parts needed in an infernal combustion engine mean few parts can be made using the workshop facilities available on most heritage railways.


Hi Brian. Life moves on though, I've read that the casting of new cylinders or driving wheels in early preservation was thought to be impossible.

Many diesel engines for example, are derivatives or variations of engines in the marine or automotive industries. The EE engine family was widespread and is still in use in mainline service and parts are available. The sheer number of preserved locos (over 140 with EE engines) will mean that groups can get together to produce small production runs in the future. More so than kettles, technological advances can be employed - microprocessors in the Westerns for example.

Nothing, perhaps, is forever.

Buffer wrote:
Assuming that 20177 is complete, how much would it cost to send it to a specialist company to have it overhauled to the same high standard as we get from Bridgnorth with a steam loco? There is no suggestion that the owners should do so but the question is asked out of interest to get comparative steam and diesel overhaul costs


I seem to remember that Western Courier's ten year overhaul cost around 100,000 and that 43106's cost around 400,000, but there will be big variations. The Western team was certainly volunteer lead with specialist work (e.g. transmission overhaul) outsourced but I can't comment on the amount of volunteer labour in each.

Going back on thread...

David McFall wrote:
my only problem is they would look better in classic liveries the black 20 has always put me off and to see the new green livery on its class mate looks fantastic.


Railway Magazine February 2010 reported D8188 is being repainted from black.

Regards

Patrick



To be authentic D8188 or 20188 can only wear BR corporate blue or Waterman railways black. It left the factory in blue as it is a late production model or it's current black livery when it was bought, owned and worked for Pete Waterman. I am lead to believe it could be in version of green not unlike 20 189.
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KJEvans



Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Posts: 1271
Location: Kidderminster or Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PGTips wrote:
I am lead to believe it could be in version of green not unlike 20 189.

Thats what I've heard as well, but time will tell.
I think the green is better.
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bradleyman



Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 835

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PGTips wrote:
bradleyman wrote:
How real is the need for thuderbird type rescues though? - taking an honest commercial view - a discipline basic to the survival of the railway.

In over 30 years of regular steam footplate work on the SVR I have only twice had to fail a steam loco which then required short notice rescue to maintain the service.

On five other occasions an altenative steam loco has been substituted at short notice to maintain the service by using locos already in steam at a depot or swapping with those on a freight duty.

Hardly a regular occurence!

If these figures are in any way typical it seems extravagant (understatement) to expect to have (in addition to the admittedly slow 08s) at least one class 20 at each end of the line - given that this will presumably cost scarce s.

Whilst agreeing that these locos are very useful on P. Way work there is now apparent an evolving tendancy to "manufacture" work for them on the railway including moving around steam locos, in steam, which are perfectly capable of being moved under their own power.



That was in the days when the SVR had a closed season and the steam loco's were able to be given some heavier maintenance but in today's commercially driven world this has lessened, probably why the SVR is having to hire steam loco's to forfill it's premier steam service. I can recall at least 4 times last year alone, that a 20 has rescued or substituted for a steam loco and that's not including Hampton Loade, which a 37 and an 08 were involved. I'm sure that the directors and most of the SVR would be pleased for you to put you hand in your pocket to fund the the movement of steam loco's under THEIR own power, this could work out mighty costly in today spiralling running costs and the added wear and tear and increased washouts.


If there is a need to further improve steam loco maintenance, to reduce the number of failures per mile run, then surely that is exactly where the money should be spent rather than accept failures which cause inconvenience and require money to be diverted into multiple numbers of thunderbird diesels. There is of course no 100% reliability in diesels either as was amply demonstrated last season.

Re the towing of light engines in steam - this is the sort of "commercial" approach taken be the late BR!
With the loco insteam anyway the true full per mile cost of the towing diesel would need to be very cheap indeed to make that approach stack up in honest financial terms. The most financially astute TOC, West Coast, do not indulge in this normally when locos need moving.
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Plato



Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Posts: 265
Location: The Acadamy, Athena

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all this fuss about the aquisition of 20177 for spares we should perhaps turn our attention to the possible vandalism that may be perpetrated by the SVR(H).

In its desire to create siding space the railway has now started to dispose of coaches. 4872 has emigrated to South Devon and the Association of Heritage Railways have been asked if they want 4786. Hugh McQuade has been instructed to strip it of spares and cut the rest up for scrap if there are no takers within 7 days. Before advertising it 3500.00 was invested with an asbestos removal contractor.

Who on the SVR is behind this wanton vandalism?

The disposal of period rolling stock is very short-sighted. Over the last year or so we have had a DMU unit scrapped after a fire and the derailment of 43106 could have resulted in coaches being written off.

While these two coaches were resident on the railway for potential restoration they were at least extant covering any unforeseen circumstances which would require their use.

So what is the fate of the other un-restored period coaches on the railway?
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bradleyman



Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 835

PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plato wrote:
With all this fuss about the aquisition of 20177 for spares we should perhaps turn our attention to the possible vandalism that may be perpetrated by the SVR(H).

In its desire to create siding space the railway has now started to dispose of coaches. 4872 has emigrated to South Devon and the Association of Heritage Railways have been asked if they want 4786. Hugh McQuade has been instructed to strip it of spares and cut the rest up for scrap if there are no takers within 7 days. Before advertising it 3500.00 was invested with an asbestos removal contractor.

Who on the SVR is behind this wanton vandalism?

The disposal of period rolling stock is very short-sighted. Over the last year or so we have had a DMU unit scrapped after a fire and the derailment of 43106 could have resulted in coaches being written off.

While these two coaches were resident on the railway for potential restoration they were at least extant covering any unforeseen circumstances which would require their use.

So what is the fate of the other un-restored period coaches on the railway?


Worthy of a thread in its own right rather than discussed under this topic?
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